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The State of Israel

Bobby has moved to blogspot.  He describes himself as pre-mill but "a half-step away from being a committed amillenialist."  He's asked the question about how a-millers view the modern state of Israel

I gave an ill-considered half answer.  What about others?  Dan Hames I'm looking in your direction?  Or post-mills?  I'd love to hear other views on this. So why not go on over and share the wealth.

Play nice though!

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0 thoughts on “The State of Israel

  1. Marc Lloyd

    I reckon a post-mill account may allow one to say how "all Israel will be saved" when "the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in" and Israel is provoked to jealousy? The conversion of most of the world followed by the conversion of most of Israel would seem to make sense of it without the need for equivocation about what "Israel" means or some other way of salvation for Jews?

  2. glenscriv

    Missy, sorry for the code-talk. You're right - I'll try to decipher more in future!

    Marc,

    Rom 11 is a good post-mill chapter huh? 'riches for the world', 'reconciliation of the world', 'mercy on all'.

    My not very thought through reading of v25-26 is roughly according to the equation: 'full number of Gentiles' plus 'hardened-Israel-now-made-jealous-and-re-grafted' equals 'all Israel.' This may fall foul of your equivocation charge but I think there has to be two senses to 'Israel' for the chapter to work - after all even if the whole world is saved it is saved as Israel (ie it is grafted into the vine). The whole chapter works on the basis of there being two senses to Israel (ethnic and spiritual) and the way v26 begins "And in this way" makes me think v26 is the sum of the two parties in v25.

    But yes, overall, Rom 11 is a good post-mill chapter I'll grant you that... hmm.

  3. theologymnast

    Of course, I needn't tell you this, but current Israel in the sense of Jews who didn't accept Christ is not the same religion as the Old Testament believers, who did look to and worship Christ.

    Although we're talking about nation-state issues here, it's worth remembering that.

    I'd only add that these chapters needed to make sense to the believers who initially received them and not be weird stuff coded for later generations to pick up and understand.

  4. bobby grow

    Thanks for the advertisement, Glen . . . for some reason I think people are scared to respond or something, I don't bite ;-) . Although premillers can be a scary breed, esp. for you innocent amillers :-) .

  5. glenscriv

    Good points theologymnast (Paul ;-))

    And Bobby, scary is right - you guys with your copies of 'Left Behind' tucked into your underground bunkers while we a-millers float aroud spiritualizing the Scriptures. Culture clash or what? =)

  6. bobby grow

    Ah Glen, the only ones in bunkers are those wily 'post'-tribbers, us 'pre-tribbers will be, well . . . not 'Left Behind.' :-)

    Yes you amillers need to plant your feet on good ole' terra firma, Gen.15; 17 and the LAND Cov, (i.e. Siniatic) would be an excellent 'landing zone' and subsequent launch pad . . . hehe ;-). If you need coordinates let me know :=)

  7. glenscriv

    Bobby - =)

    Dev - yeah I haven't come up with a neat description of you yet. Perhaps Pessimistic Barthian? Still it's good to know that all four categories of eschatology feast at the christthetruth table: pre-mill; a-mill; post-mill and Dev!

  8. The Orange Mailman

    Romans 11 has definite Post-Mill implications. The framework for when this happens, though, is at the time when Israel (national) is provoked to jealousy by the Gentiles. The current time of the fullness of the Gentiles comes to a close when Israel's fullness begins. But the time for salvation of the Gentiles is not over at that point, but only just beginning.

    So currently with Israel blinded we have Gentiles experiencing the riches of Christ. But when Israel's blindness is lifted, how much richer!

    My view on Romans 11:26-27 is to take Isaiah 59:20-21 in its original context. That context states that Israel (national Israel) will be saved in the sense that after God's Spirit nationally comes upon Israel, from that point on, the offspring of Israel will be saved forever. So when Paul states that all Israel will be saved, he is writing of the conclusion of the fullness of the Gentiles which begins the nation of Israel's circumcision, New Covenant relationship, however you want to term it, in such a way that all her offspring will be saved "from henceforth and forever."

    This begins the Millennial kingdom during which time Gentile nations will be saved as well. So from a Pre-Mill perspective, I see Post-Mill implications for Romans 11, but they are only implications.

    Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

    -The Orange Mailman

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